thanks for chiming in.

you said: “Shinzen is giving advice here on how to meditate during the dream state, not necessarily on how to explore that state.”

exactly. the lucid dream state is one of the many realms within the Intermediate Realms. i think that Shinzen is coming from the context of “Intermediate Realm is cool but better wake up first before exploring your heart out.”

“Although he advocates noting sensations *as* whatever they would have seemed to be in sensory reality, he’s not saying anything specific here about their true nature.”

i agree. then again, i don’t think Shinzen would make grand claims on the “true” nature of things. most of the time what he talks about is sensory reality rather making grand claims on absolute reality (or true nature of things).

“This raises the interesting point about whether it’s okay to note things *wrongly* during meditation. Now, ’sight’ in a dream is *not* actually sight; ’sound’ in a dream is *not* actually sound. Yet Shinzen says it’s okay to note them as such (i.e. wrongly) because it’s (presumably) the noting itself that matters.”

yes, it’s the *noting* itself that matters, the labeling is just secondary. take note that Shinzen defines “noting” and “labeling” as different activities (see “How to Note and Label“). labeling can be arbitrary, it’s the noting itself that fosters *concentration*, *clarity*, and *equanimity*. the “goal” is to awaken within the “dream”. from that context, lucid dream and waking reality are the same. so the Five Ways approach should apply to both.

“Is the same true in the waking world when we meditate? Maybe not, because in the waking world we need to engage with reality for what it actually is.”

they’re similar but not the same. the dream state is more malleable, more primordial than the waking state. with enough lucidity, it’s relatively easier to observe/contemplate/flow with impermanence in the dream. my intention is to make lucid dream as my laboratory, in which the “goal” of the experiment is awakening.

B. Alan Wallace has a good description of lucid dreaming as an experiment. check out “Dream Practices: Comparing Dream Yoga and Lucid Dreaming” on Buddhist Geeks.

“In the dream world, however, by following Shinzen’s advice we are not taking interest in that world for what it actually is, but simply seizing an opportunity to continue meditating…”

exactly. and that is my overall attitude towards lucid dreaming practice. i learned some lucid dreaming techniques from Carlos Castaneda (see the “The Art of Dreaming“). but i prefer a more direct plunge into the Source before doing more explorations.

my two cents.

~C

A couple of thoughts… Shinzen is giving advice here on how to meditate during the dream state, not necessarily on how to explore that state. Although he advocates noting sensations *as* whatever they would have seemed to be in sensory reality, he’s not saying anything specific here about their true nature. Noting them as their sensory analogues is just a way to keep the noting going without hesitation or confusion – just to keep the meditation going.

This raises the interesting point about whether it’s okay to note things *wrongly* during meditation. Now, ‘sight’ in a dream is *not* actually sight; ‘sound’ in a dream is *not* actually sound. Yet Shinzen says it’s okay to note them as such (i.e. wrongly) because it’s (presumably) the noting itself that matters.

Is the same true in the waking world when we meditate? Maybe not, because in the waking world we need to engage with reality for what it actually is. In the dream world, however, by following Shinzen’s advice we are not taking interest in that world for what it actually is, but simply seizing an opportunity to continue meditating…

Or am I missing something?