good point. Buddhism is very nuanced. and it’s really hard to generalize without misrepresenting the other schools of Buddhism.

that said, Mahayana is a big school in the Buddhist tradition (which include Zen and Tibetan buddhism), in “general” Western Buddhism is more familiar with these two main schools.

so when i use the term “general” i use it very loosely to mean the general presence of Buddhism in the Western culture, especially here in the U.S.. for example, for a lot (if not most) people here in the U.S. when you mention Buddhist, the first image that would come to mind is that of a Zen Master or the Dalai Lama.

you may also want to look at this “What Buddhists Believe – Trikaya: The Three Bodies of the Buddha”. i think it did more generalizing than what i did here – http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/whatbudbeliev/25.htm

that said, the three kayas correspond also to the three modes of consciousness (in the Buddhist and Hindu tradition). the three modes are: waking, dreaming, and deep sleep.

so if you prefer not to talk about kayas. the three modes of consciousness would provide similar metaphors.

thanks for clarifying.

~C

thanks for reading. as to your questions, the best person who can answer them is, of course, Shinzen himself.

that said, allow me to share my opinion based on my intellectual and experiential understanding. but take them for what they are: just opinions. if you find them useful great, if not then feel free to set them aside

first of, remember that the layers are just metaphors for dividing different states or modes of consciousness. the general model used here comes from the Buddhist tradition. other traditions (or even different schools of Buddhism) have differet number of layers in their model.

in general,in the Buddhist tradition, the three layers correspond to the three bodies or “kayas”: Nirmanakaya–corresponds to the first layer (or surface layer) which is our waking consciousness (or consensual reality)’ Sambhogakaya–corresponds to the second layer (or Intermediate Realm) which includes the subtle realms (ie, dreaming), subsconscious, and unconscious. so the this layer is very thick compared to the first layer. Dharmakaya–corresponds to the body of the Absolute (the nondual), which really is not a layer. it can also be viewed as the totality of everything (including the first and the second layers). for simplicity, we just refer to it as a layer to make the metaphor more tangible.

the Intermediate Realm, as i understand it, is the “layer” (or altered, or mode of consciousness) wherein we can have experiences that are “outside” of consensual reality (e.g. lucid dreams, visionary/hallucinations, psychic experiences, ghosts, etc.) so in short, first layer = everyday consensual reality’; third layer = Absolute; all the rest falls within the second layer.

you said: “What are the bench marks people can tune into to know what layer they are experiencing?”

i guess the benchmarks would be something like: if you have experiences that are subtle (lucid dreaming) or visions or what not, which is not generally available in everyday consensual reality, then that would fall under the category of Intermediate Realm (or second layer); as for the third layer (the Source), i’ll let you know once i get first-hand experience

you said: “do you know where you are? If your progressing? If you’ve become static in your practice?”

i guess the benchmark for this can only be answered by you: if you can maintain mindfulness and equanimity to all the different experiences with minimal craving or aversion to the experience then i think that would be a good benchmark. another is if you observe yourself having positive changes in your behavior and overall attitude then i think that’s a good benchmark that your practice is having a positive effect on you. i look at this as a good thing

good to know that you’re listening to the Science of Enlightement series. i suggest to keep listening to it when you get the chance. in my experience, i can connect the dots the more i listen. in short, i learn something new everytime i listen to it

godspeed on your practice.

take care.

~C

Shinzen said:
“By consciousness I mean, of course, just the six senses. Hearing, seeing, smelling, tasting, the feeling body, and the thinking mind are the six doors of consciousness. And collectively, taken together, we can use the word consciousness to describe the collective of these six senses. We’re starting to go into consciousness rather than moving on the surface of consciousness. It’s a kind of journey from the surface of consciousness to the Source of consciousness. In doing so, we pass through successive strata or layers of consciousness, encounter different kinds of phenomena.”
Are there just the three layers though? And if one is practicing mindfulness and equanimity with the six senses, where are they in terms of the three layer cake? This is where I’m confused. It would seem that if one were bringing mindfulness and equanimity into their sitting practice they would not be hanging out on that top layer (surface layer of consciousness.) But if they aren’t experiencing the surface layer of consciousness does that mean they would automatically be in the second layer of the cake, (the intermediate realm.) I realize that Shinzen says that one doesn’t necessarily experience some of the wild phenomena he gives as examples. But if they don’t experience these kinds of phenomena I’m wondering more specifically what they DO experience instead.
When Shinzen said:
“When we shine the lights of mindfulness, and when we pour the water of equanimity into any experience that brightness and softening agents seep down into those areas where the blockages are and things get clarified and dissolved. And so the surface gets closer and closer to the Source.”
This made me think that here too was an example of moving from the surface layer to the Source—I’m guessing this is what the intermediate realm can look like when experienced, (even without the phenomena he says some others experience in the intermediate realm) Is that right?

So, when Shinzen says:

“Some people traverse the whole intermediate realm from surface to Source and are never aware of anything other than very ordinary banal experiences like the touch of their clothes, or aches and pains in their body, or the feeling of the breath. That’s all that ever happens to them, and yet they’re able to go to the Source”

What are the bench marks people can tune into to know what layer they are experiencing? I’m not actually all that wrapped up in “getting to the Source” but I’ve heard Shinzen talk about the value of benchmarks briefly before so it’s kinda stood out in my mind as something I should maybe be more aware of—afterall, without them, how the heck do you know where you are? If your progressing? If you’ve become static in your practice?

Sorry this is so long, and I hope my questions make some sense. Your transcriptions of Shinzen’s sessions are AWESOME! I’ve been diving into his Enlightenment series myself (just finished my first of what will undoubtedly be several rounds of the whole series.) And it was your review I found on amazon (as well as your kick ass blog here) that made me purchase it.

Many Blessings to you C4
YOU ROCK!
Diana

The problem with the buddhist approach is that it can easily lead people into ignoring or suppressing this realm of experience. The problem with the western magical approach is that it introduces people to this realm, but most of them never get beyond it!

I look forward to the day when there are open discussions and retreats based around this stuff at my local buddhist centre…