Comments on: Obama and McCain @ Saddleback Civil Forum http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/ (hyper)streaming with passion and compassion Sat, 11 Feb 2012 08:26:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: ELIASS http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-3115 ELIASS Thu, 09 Oct 2008 17:19:44 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-3115 Obama answered questions thoughtfully and wisely. I believe he is a sincere man and he will be president. What i like about Obama is that he speaks from the heart and seems to be in touch with the average people of the united states of america. here is a good web-site to have an idea how if the world could vote, it's suprised me a lot : http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/results If you want to vote : http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com Obama answered questions thoughtfully and wisely. I believe he is a sincere man and he will be president. What i like about Obama is that he speaks from the heart and seems to be in touch with the average people of the united states of america.
here is a good web-site to have an idea how if the world could vote, it’s suprised me a lot : http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com/results
If you want to vote : http://www.iftheworldcouldvote.com

]]> By: Paul http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-3080 Paul Mon, 08 Sep 2008 02:40:14 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-3080 After reading the comments by B Mcknight, Howard and Bob D, only a heavy dose of reality could soothe my disbelief that these Republicans could be so factually ignorant. First of all this was a religious, evangelical forum rather than a civil forum as Rick Warren intimated. I mean evangelical in the modern American meaning of the term, not in the Biblical sense. I came to this conclusion because eradicating evil IS NOT a constitutional requirement for the President of the United States. Concomitantly, evil CANNOT be eliminated according to the teachings of Jesus, whom we Christians are supposed to be telling the world about (Evangelizing). He said in Mark 7:21-23, “…from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. ALL THESE evils come from inside and make a man unclean.” The only 2008 Presidential candidate who has committed the evils of sexual immorality and adultery is John McCain, by his own admission. Yet, you Republicans think that just because Iran and North Korea were listed by George W. Bush as evil empires, that Evangelicals should support anyone who speaks about destroying them. Take a lesson from the fall of the Soviet Union. Republicans claim that Reagan caused its collapse because of his tough stance and being in office when it happened. Well, with that logic, we should blame George W. Bush for the restoration of Russian power including its recent incursion into Georgian territory as well as the attacks on 9/11. You should be aware as a Christian that no world power would exist were it not God’s plan. Read about Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel chapter 4. Or look to the New Testament, which we true Evangelicals follow, to read Jesus’ response to Pilate in John 19:11, “you would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.” The greatest evil, as maintained by Republicans and so-called Evangelicals is abortion. Do you believe that only Democrats and non-Christians get abortions? You guys need to check the statistics. Before the law was changed to legalize abortions, Democrats, Republicans, Christians and non-Christians got abortions based on their ability to pay. Those who couldn’t afford a “medical procedure” got “back-alley” abortions. If you want to claim the moral high-ground as it relates to the sanctity of life, then consider that the United States kill more people through capital punishment than any other industrialized nation in the world. Additionally, recent DNA testing has proved some of those individuals were innocent. Where is the moral outrage from religious groups like Focus on the Family, on this form of evil which also takes innocent life? Oh, I know where they are and why they are not teaching people like you about the love of Jesus Christ through His Gospel, they’re busy praying for it to rain on Obama’s speech at the Democratic National Convention. By the way it was a perfect night weather-wise. Postscript: Are you familiar with Biblical teaching on God sending rain. Jesus said in Matthew 5:45 that our “Father in heaven causes His Sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” You decide for yourselves where you fall among these groups. May God bless you in your search for the truth! After reading the comments by B Mcknight, Howard and Bob D, only a heavy dose of reality could soothe my disbelief that these Republicans could be so factually ignorant. First of all this was a religious, evangelical forum rather than a civil forum as Rick Warren intimated. I mean evangelical in the modern American meaning of the term, not in the Biblical sense. I came to this conclusion because eradicating evil IS NOT a constitutional requirement for the President of the United States. Concomitantly, evil CANNOT be eliminated according to the teachings of Jesus, whom we Christians are supposed to be telling the world about (Evangelizing). He said in Mark 7:21-23, “…from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. ALL THESE evils come from inside and make a man unclean.” The only 2008 Presidential candidate who has committed the evils of sexual immorality and adultery is John McCain, by his own admission. Yet, you Republicans think that just because Iran and North Korea were listed by George W. Bush as evil empires, that Evangelicals should support anyone who speaks about destroying them. Take a lesson from the fall of the Soviet Union. Republicans claim that Reagan caused its collapse because of his tough stance and being in office when it happened. Well, with that logic, we should blame George W. Bush for the restoration of Russian power including its recent incursion into Georgian territory as well as the attacks on 9/11. You should be aware as a Christian that no world power would exist were it not God’s plan. Read about Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel chapter 4. Or look to the New Testament, which we true Evangelicals follow, to read Jesus’ response to Pilate in John 19:11, “you would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above.” The greatest evil, as maintained by Republicans and so-called Evangelicals is abortion. Do you believe that only Democrats and non-Christians get abortions? You guys need to check the statistics. Before the law was changed to legalize abortions, Democrats, Republicans, Christians and non-Christians got abortions based on their ability to pay. Those who couldn’t afford a “medical procedure” got “back-alley” abortions. If you want to claim the moral high-ground as it relates to the sanctity of life, then consider that the United States kill more people through capital punishment than any other industrialized nation in the world. Additionally, recent DNA testing has proved some of those individuals were innocent. Where is the moral outrage from religious groups like Focus on the Family, on this form of evil which also takes innocent life? Oh, I know where they are and why they are not teaching people like you about the love of Jesus Christ through His Gospel, they’re busy praying for it to rain on Obama’s speech at the Democratic National Convention. By the way it was a perfect night weather-wise.
Postscript: Are you familiar with Biblical teaching on God sending rain. Jesus said in Matthew 5:45 that our “Father in heaven causes His Sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.” You decide for yourselves where you fall among these groups. May God bless you in your search for the truth!

]]> By: bmcknight62000@yahoo http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-3007 bmcknight62000@yahoo Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:42:06 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-3007 I could not disagree with you more on the question is there evil in the world today and what can be done about it? Tolerate it, defeat it or the other word escapes me now but it was not yo confront it like Obama said. I saw Obama as a stammering child who was clearly intimidated by being in the spot light. Back to the question about evil. Obama's answer(and please go back and listen to it)is absurd and shows how much he really does not love America. It did not take him but one or two sentences to get himself back to America. That America is the evil one. He did not come out and say that. But its very clear if you listen to the man speak about evil. He cited Dufar as being evil and then came right back to America. Saying that evil should be "confronted with humility". Are you kidding me? This is the man you want for your President. When there is evil done in this world such as the evil John McCain spoke of and when asked what is to be done with evil he said without hesitation "defeat it". You dont negotiate with evil. When you see evil being done you act. I cant imagine living in the Obama home God forbid a burgalar decides to break in and has his family at knife point and screaming profanities and coming at his children to harm them. What is going to do? Oh sir were you a product of single parent household? Or did your dad beat you when you were a child? McCain's answer to Warren was about the evil acts that took place when members of the Jihad strapped bombs to people who were handicapped and rolled them into a crowd of innocent people and blew them up. Now that's evil. Obama does not love America and neither does his wife. Are people in America really this blind and dumb? Just because the man is a great motivational speaker and that is it. That they dont look at his record. Or lack there of. Or the little things he says here there that make me cringe to think that this man a man when asked about evil in the world starts with America? If he wants to talk about evil in America and there is. Try talking about the 40 million babies that have been murdered at our hands. Lets put a stop to that. Obama is a racist and a bigot. His spiritual advisor as Obama has quoted was Jeremiah Wright for over 20years. I'm sorry if my spiritual advisor for over twenty years said that blacks our a plague that America doserved to be attacked on 911. I would have went to him personally and said my two cents and then denounced the church. This has been his spiritual advisor for over twenty years! The man obviously shares the same views as him. I know he has come out and denounced it now. But if he was not running for president I just cant help but believe he would still be apart of that congregation that preaches hate against America and hate against a race of people. That is who he is to the core. Read, search people do your homework.Look into these canditates. Don't just listen to these news outlets and radio shows. I have not by any means been waving the McCain flag for the past couple of years. But from what I have learned about Obama and the stark differences that that the conversation at Saddleback showed...I am now. I could not disagree with you more on the question is there evil in the world today and what can be done about it? Tolerate it, defeat it or the other word escapes me now but it was not yo confront it like Obama said. I saw Obama as a stammering child who was clearly intimidated by being in the spot light. Back to the question about evil. Obama’s answer(and please go back and listen to it)is absurd and shows how much he really does not love America. It did not take him but one or two sentences to get himself back to America. That America is the evil one. He did not come out and say that. But its very clear if you listen to the man speak about evil. He cited Dufar as being evil and then came right back to America. Saying that evil should be “confronted with humility”. Are you kidding me? This is the man you want for your President. When there is evil done in this world such as the evil John McCain spoke of and when asked what is to be done with evil he said without hesitation “defeat it”. You dont negotiate with evil. When you see evil being done you act. I cant imagine living in the Obama home God forbid a burgalar decides to break in and has his family at knife point and screaming profanities and coming at his children to harm them. What is going to do? Oh sir were you a product of single parent household? Or did your dad beat you when you were a child? McCain’s answer to Warren was about the evil acts that took place when members of the Jihad strapped bombs to people who were handicapped and rolled them into a crowd of innocent people and blew them up. Now that’s evil. Obama does not love America and neither does his wife. Are people in America really this blind and dumb? Just because the man is a great motivational speaker and that is it. That they dont look at his record. Or lack there of. Or the little things he says here there that make me cringe to think that this man a man when asked about evil in the world starts with America? If he wants to talk about evil in America and there is. Try talking about the 40 million babies that have been murdered at our hands. Lets put a stop to that. Obama is a racist and a bigot. His spiritual advisor as Obama has quoted was Jeremiah Wright for over 20years. I’m sorry if my spiritual advisor for over twenty years said that blacks our a plague that America doserved to be attacked on 911. I would have went to him personally and said my two cents and then denounced the church. This has been his spiritual advisor for over twenty years! The man obviously shares the same views as him. I know he has come out and denounced it now. But if he was not running for president I just cant help but believe he would still be apart of that congregation that preaches hate against America and hate against a race of people. That is who he is to the core. Read, search people do your homework.Look into these canditates. Don’t just listen to these news outlets and radio shows. I have not by any means been waving the McCain flag for the past couple of years. But from what I have learned about Obama and the stark differences that that the conversation at Saddleback showed…I am now.

]]> By: We Pick the Presidential Candidate Who Shares Our Worldview < ~C4Chaos http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-2998 We Pick the Presidential Candidate Who Shares Our Worldview < ~C4Chaos Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:06:53 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-2998 [...] the policies of both candidates (at least those policies that are important to me), their moral values and worldviews, intelligence, and overall geopolitical appeal, Obama is the *better* [...] [...] the policies of both candidates (at least those policies that are important to me), their moral values and worldviews, intelligence, and overall geopolitical appeal, Obama is the *better* [...]

]]> By: admin http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-2995 admin Tue, 19 Aug 2008 19:52:16 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-2995 William, i'm still optimistic ;) serendipitously, i just received this message from Science Debate 2008 on my inbox. i'm crossing my fingers. <blockquote>It is a mistake for the campaigns to assume evangelical voters are not also intelligent, educated, and weighing the 14 science issues in their voting decisions. In fact, a whopping <a href="http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=33" rel="nofollow">85% of Americans</a> polled would like to see the candidates attend a forum on <a href="http://www.sciencedebate2008.com/www/index.php?id=35" rel="nofollow">the 14 questions</a>.</blockquote> William,

i’m still optimistic ;)

serendipitously, i just received this message from Science Debate 2008 on my inbox. i’m crossing my fingers.

It is a mistake for the campaigns to assume evangelical voters are not also intelligent, educated, and weighing the 14 science issues in their voting decisions. In fact, a whopping 85% of Americans polled would like to see the candidates attend a forum on the 14 questions.

]]> By: Howard http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-2994 Howard Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:13:28 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-2994 I thought the Saddleback debate was a wonderful way to gauge the two candidates and compare them to one another. I also think that Rick Warren did a great job, with balanced and probing questions ... questions which any legitimate candidate for President of the United States should have already wrestled with on his own, way before arriving at this debate. Therefore, why did Obama respond to the questions as if it was the first time he has ever considered these points. John McCain's immediate and decisive answers show that he had already given a great deal of thought to real concerns, as posed in these questions ... where as Obama had to take the time to stutter and deliberate over the same questions asked of McCain. This was very revealing, and so were the Obama camp's accusations of cheating, after Obama lost the debate ... just another indication that Obama is a sore loser who is not qualified to lead this country ... and, McCain is. I thought the Saddleback debate was a wonderful way to gauge the two candidates and compare them to one another. I also think that Rick Warren did a great job, with balanced and probing questions … questions which any legitimate candidate for President of the United States should have already wrestled with on his own, way before arriving at this debate. Therefore, why did Obama respond to the questions as if it was the first time he has ever considered these points. John McCain’s immediate and decisive answers show that he had already given a great deal of thought to real concerns, as posed in these questions … where as Obama had to take the time to stutter and deliberate over the same questions asked of McCain. This was very revealing, and so were the Obama camp’s accusations of cheating, after Obama lost the debate … just another indication that Obama is a sore loser who is not qualified to lead this country … and, McCain is.

]]> By: William Harryman http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-2993 William Harryman Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:37:21 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-2993 Cool analysis -- and I agree with your take on things. My sense (in SDi terms) is that McCain is heavily BLUE with some orange in fiscal areas. But I also think he has a tendency to revert to authoritarianism as his fallback stance -- a black and white, good or evil position. Scary! I don't see that in Obama, who might be a bit yellow intellectually, but still stuck in GREEN socially -- not so bad. But I think he understands the value of BLUE religion much more than many other liberals. At the meta level, I am afraid that Obama has that "intellectual" thing going on that dooms so many Democrats. McCain has cultivated his inner redneck to the point that he sometimes sounds like Bush. And those little stories he told were ALL about being folksy and down to earth, not one of them there "liberal elitists." I don't have your optimism. The American public continually proves to be dumber than I give them credit for. Peace, Bill Cool analysis — and I agree with your take on things.

My sense (in SDi terms) is that McCain is heavily BLUE with some orange in fiscal areas. But I also think he has a tendency to revert to authoritarianism as his fallback stance — a black and white, good or evil position. Scary!

I don’t see that in Obama, who might be a bit yellow intellectually, but still stuck in GREEN socially — not so bad. But I think he understands the value of BLUE religion much more than many other liberals.

At the meta level, I am afraid that Obama has that “intellectual” thing going on that dooms so many Democrats. McCain has cultivated his inner redneck to the point that he sometimes sounds like Bush.

And those little stories he told were ALL about being folksy and down to earth, not one of them there “liberal elitists.”

I don’t have your optimism. The American public continually proves to be dumber than I give them credit for.

Peace,
Bill

]]> By: admin http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-2992 admin Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:42:55 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-2992 btw, i make it a habit to check out FactCheck.org to see the skewed partial views of both candidates. see: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/saddleback_bloopers.html <b>"Obama makes misleading claims about ethics legislation and abortion at a church-sponsored forum. McCain exaggerates his tax-cut proposals."</b> btw, i make it a habit to check out FactCheck.org to see the skewed partial views of both candidates.

see: http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/saddleback_bloopers.html

“Obama makes misleading claims about ethics legislation and abortion at a church-sponsored forum. McCain exaggerates his tax-cut proposals.”

]]> By: admin http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-2991 admin Mon, 18 Aug 2008 21:05:54 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-2991 Bob, good point. that's the part i mentioned that I don't share Obama's theological views. Obama didn't have to pander like that. McCain didn't mention God or Jesus during the forum. however, there are still nasty rumors and doubts about Obama's religion (as being Muslim, not that there's anything wrong with it, but it's false.) i think that's why Obama had to play that Jesus card. of course, it's possible that Obama really believe that. in which case, it's still possible to separate his religious views from his thoughtful leadership. JFK was able to do it. Blair did it. i guess it depends on how a leader does it. Bush's example is a nightmare scenario. ~C Bob,

good point. that’s the part i mentioned that I don’t share Obama’s theological views. Obama didn’t have to pander like that. McCain didn’t mention God or Jesus during the forum.

however, there are still nasty rumors and doubts about Obama’s religion (as being Muslim, not that there’s anything wrong with it, but it’s false.) i think that’s why Obama had to play that Jesus card. of course, it’s possible that Obama really believe that. in which case, it’s still possible to separate his religious views from his thoughtful leadership. JFK was able to do it. Blair did it. i guess it depends on how a leader does it. Bush’s example is a nightmare scenario.

~C

]]> By: Bob D. http://www.c4chaos.com/2008/08/obama-and-mccain-saddleback-civil-forum/comment-page-1/#comment-2990 Bob D. Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:56:16 +0000 http://www.c4chaos.com/?p=2786#comment-2990 C- I appreciate your in-depth and thoughtful post. I happened to watch the Obama portion the other day and had quite a different reaction. It really creeped me out to hear Obama say "I believe Jesus died for my sins" and all that. Undoubtedly my reaction can be partly explained by the fact that I'm not a Christian. But it's more than that. I literally felt sick during that exchange, because I knew he couldn't answer any other way and still hope to be president. My intuition is incredibly biased, but I don't think Obama is being truthful about his heart-felt beliefs. His response to Warren doesn't fit with the rest of his vibe. Statistically, it's just impossible that there aren't more atheist/agnostic or even integral types in positions of power, especially on the left. If Obama really is a devout Christian, then great. But if he just doesn't have the guts to be honest about his real worldview, then I've lost all faith in him. C-

I appreciate your in-depth and thoughtful post. I happened to watch the Obama portion the other day and had quite a different reaction. It really creeped me out to hear Obama say “I believe Jesus died for my sins” and all that. Undoubtedly my reaction can be partly explained by the fact that I’m not a Christian. But it’s more than that. I literally felt sick during that exchange, because I knew he couldn’t answer any other way and still hope to be president. My intuition is incredibly biased, but I don’t think Obama is being truthful about his heart-felt beliefs. His response to Warren doesn’t fit with the rest of his vibe.

Statistically, it’s just impossible that there aren’t more atheist/agnostic or even integral types in positions of power, especially on the left. If Obama really is a devout Christian, then great. But if he just doesn’t have the guts to be honest about his real worldview, then I’ve lost all faith in him.

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